Ep 31: The “Bud”y System. An interview w/ Jason Lammers, The Cannabis Alliance

We are joined by Jason Lammers, Vice president of the Cannabis Alliance.

As you all may know Washington became the first U.S. state to legalize recreational use of marijuana in 2012 and the second to allow recreational marijuana sales. The state had previously legalized medical marijuana in 1998. Today, we are chatting with The Cannabis Alliance, the largest industry association in WA representing over 250 licensees, medical advocates, and ancillary businesses. 

The Cannabis Alliance’s mission as a non-profit is to tell the real story about cannabis through education, advocacy, and setting the highest possible industry standards. We want people to learn the positive impact the industry has in providing new businesses, jobs and tax income, as well as many other social benefits.  To learn more visit their website: https://thecannabisalliance.us/

Connect w/ Ryan:
https://thecannabisalliance.us/jason-lammers/

Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CannAlliance

Transcript

Ronjini Joshua: 0:10

Hello, everybody, as you know, Washington was the first state to legalize recreational use of marijuana in 2012. And the second to allow recreational sales of marijuana and legalized medically in 1998. Today, we are excited to chat with the cannabis Alliance, the largest industry association in Washington. And arguably probably one of the associations that saw a lot of stuff happen before we all the rest of the world or the rest of the United States saw it happen. So we have Jason Lammers from the cannabis Alliance. Hi, Jason. Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. I have a lot of questions from our pre interview. So we are going to get into it, we're gonna straight dive straight into the meat. So I hope you're ready. Oh, good. So first and foremost, of course, let's get warmed up and kind of let's hear a little bit about who you are, where you came from how you got into the cannabis industry.

Jason Lammers: 1:12

Sure, yeah. So a little bit about me, I come from a small business background, been in some sort of, kind of small business entrepreneurial space really, since high school and just always had a passion for that. About five years ago, I saw an opportunity to get into cannabis and really wanted to kind of be the picks and shovels, guys, crate crate a supply chain for the cannabis farmers and so started getting an opportunity to get into packaging, I knew a few guys in the industry already are in the packaging space already. So I approached them and kind of sold the idea of pivoting into cannabis. And now that's really our sole focus. And so we're a cannabis packaging supplier. And so that's what I do personally. And then as I got into this space, pretty quickly recognized that you know, I needed to because I didn't know a lot of people in the cannabis space, I needed to find those networks and kind of build those relationships. And that's where I found the cannabis Alliance. And so I've been a member for about five years now. So I joined really early on in my career in the cannabis space. And as I got involved with this group just was really impressed with the work that they were doing the organization they built in values that they had, and just saw that you know, this already was excited to be in cannabis because I felt like this is just kind of a revolutionary groundbreaking space to be in.

Ronjini Joshua: 2:26

Yeah,

Jason Lammers: 2:27

my cannabis alliances really kind of that voice for you know, how should this industry look going forward? You know, like what, knowing that legalization is just the first step in that you got a long ways to go to really build this thing into a very sustainable and successful industry for everybody.

Ronjini Joshua: 2:43

Yeah, I mean, that's that's exciting thing about you guys being in Washington, I think in general is just like you guys kind of you get to you got you're kind of the guinea pig, right? They can have his guinea pig.

Jason Lammers: 2:54

Yeah, yeah, I think Colorado were the first to to legalize. And so so our two states were kind of the first to kind of test markets to figure things out, you need to we really, were the first two states doing the legalization thing, which was a very tough thing to write. And, of course, some people would argue, and certainly not perfect, and we've got work to do there. So, you know, we kind of got those laws, but together by people that were doing their best that they could figuring out something that they didn't understand, right? You know, a lot of these legislators to this day, are still just learning about cannabis and kind of, you know, what it can do and what the marketplace can be. It's hard to write good regulations when you're so kind of ignorant in that space.

Ronjini Joshua: 3:33

Right. Yeah.

Jason Lammers: 3:34

I mean, there's been a lot of kind of having to go back to both Ltd, and legislation and kind of explain, like, you know, trying to work with the stakeholders and carve a better path forward for everybody.

Ronjini Joshua: 3:46

Yeah, absolutely. Um, okay, first, before we move forward, can you move closer to the canvas? The microphone? Are you? Yeah, yeah. You're just a little little bit distant. Okay. Um, okay. So I think as Washington was the first state to legalize, and you guys have had so many experiences that maybe other places haven't had kids, what can what is the role of the cannabis alliance in that maybe you can give us a quick background on the cannabis Alliance?

Jason Lammers: 4:20

Sure, yeah. So when the Kava flats formed, it was before I had joined a little practice six or 12 months before I joined the organization, but they had actually come together through a bunch of smaller organizations, okay, and say that we're representing a variety of groups in the medical space before we have the full legalization. And so there's about five different groups that all kind of came together and said, Look, you know, if we really want to make a difference, and you know, we've got I like, quickly and so to visit and come together as well as a bunch of groups and kind of like the egos aside and come together for the greater good, basically. And so there was five organizations in the state that all kind of came together and formed the cannabis Alliance. And so So that was a really kind of neat story that, you know, a bunch of people kind of put their egos aside and maybe some of their own personal agendas to really form a larger group that we can collectively, you know, move things forward in a better better fashion for these people. Do you? It's recording. It's recording? Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: 5:24

Um, do you think that the people, the folks in Washington, like, I mean, maybe now, you guys probably all realizes that I'm assuming you've had plenty of conversations. But did you guys realize like, you were really like, setting the stage for the way that some of the other states operate?

Jason Lammers: 5:44

Um, you know, I don't know if that was thought about at the time, I think everybody was more focused on how do we get this right for, you know, for our state, but I think as we kind of reflect more now that as things develop more, and now that people do kind of come to our state for advice, I think as long as legalization is developed across the country, I think we've noticed that, you know, a lot of people do reach out to states like ours, like Washington and Colorado for those kind of leadership perspectives, because we've been doing it the longest from from a from a full legalization perspective. Yeah. I don't know if he really had that envision initially. But I think I've definitely seen that as I've been a part of the organization that you get a lot of people from other states that are even people that still haven't realized, right, but they're starting to craft their their laws. And so they're reaching out and asking us, you know, what worked and what didn't, which is great, right? So they can hopefully get their first round of laws crafted in a much more intelligent fashion.

Ronjini Joshua: 6:37

Yeah, I think when when you're paving a new path, maybe you don't know that you're doing it in like in the midst of everything. And then, like you said, people are now coming to you guys, which is kind of cool, because we're not trying to reinvent the wheel and every place that we you know, do it.

Jason Lammers: 6:54

Yeah, I mean, I'm One really cool example that we passed. Last year, we work on our committee with I run the sustainable cannabis committee, we worked on getting some packaging rule changes to reduce our waste in their state, the state and we have everybody have a four mil bag standard for every state have legalized and there's no science or standards around that. And it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be clickable for our industry. And so we approached the liquor cannabis board, and brought that to their attention, show them some data, both in FDA studies and other industry groups, kind of why you would ever need a four mil bag for those purposes. And really, the only reason for any industry to have a four mil standard is if it's a sharper, really heavy item that needs that extra protection, so it doesn't puncture a rip. And obviously cannabis is not heavier or sharp. And so there was absolutely no kind of science or standards around that decision. And it's a very wasteful and harmful decision for our planet, right? extra cost and extra plastic waste we just don't need. And so the LTV was really, really excited that we brought that to their attention. And they were supportive of us for profit initiative, and we got to pass and so effective January 2020, we got that effectively passing the rules. And so all of our packaging now can be two minutes. So for which saved about 40 tons of plastic per year just by our packaging alone. So that was a really big win that we got done. And so as other states are starting to legalize, we're hoping that, you know, maybe some of them will bring out to mailbag rules from the jump, right, so that they don't have to go back and fix those kind of wasteful regulations. That's just kind of one example of how, you know, regular regulations can be, you know, maybe well intentioned, but kind of take me too excessive, and then kind of end up being a negative. And so that was kind of one cool thing that we got addressed and dealt with properly.

Ronjini Joshua: 8:42

Yeah, that's Yeah, I mean, it's so funny, because like the decision intricate detail, like, you know, until you start building your business, you don't know that you're gonna run on to that, you know, once you get you, you get to packaging, when you get to packaging, it's usually not like the first thing you think about. And then you have all these questions. You're like, wait a minute, I don't know what I'm doing here. It's nice to be able to have that resource. One of the biggest questions I have for you guys use today is just that, you know, what is the main goal of the Alliance? And and I guess I'm gonna start with that question. I haven't I have a follow up. But yeah, what is the main goal of the Alliance, the cannabis alliance in Washington and and nationally.

Jason Lammers: 9:25

So we're primarily just in the state, you know, that's our membership group. And so we're really focused on on Washington State issues, but we are a sister organization of the NCAA, which is the national group. And so we do stay in contact with them and get, you know, stay up to date with the the national news and agenda because obviously, that's going to have some impacts on our state as as that federal legalization opens up. But when, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we came together as five organizations. And because we did that, you know, we really wanted to keep it a very democratic format and something that It really couldn't be controlled by any one individual or company. And so, so all of our board has voted voted for every year. So we have open elections. And so anybody who is a member and go level member above can run for the board. And so we're a democratic democratically elected board. And then we're just we're big on, again, looking for, how do we craft this industry forward? that's best for everyone. So we're not just pushing in on one particular industry group or companies agenda. It really is that we pulled out a lot, a lot to our membership, to get feedback to find out what our memberships thinking. And then we ultimately, you know, work within the board as well to vote on important issues to determine the path of the Alliance. And so that's kind of unique, whereas a lot of industry groups may be a little bit more focused on, you know, kind of a narrow lane vision where they just, they have a specific agenda they're trying to achieve, and that kind of, that's their sole focus, we're we're kind of a much broader organization. And our agenda is really change, you know, every year based on what the most pressing issues are, and what our membership feels we need to address.

Ronjini Joshua: 11:08

So that actually brings me into another nice, you know, compliment to that is, you know, what our It looks like you guys are really driven by like you said, the members needs and and the organizations that are joining the cannabis Alliance, what are the kinds of resources that you guys provide? And this is kind of still our background portion of the podcast, but what are the resources that you provide as an alliance for businesses that are either established or getting into the cannabis industry?

Jason Lammers: 11:39

Yeah, so I mean, we do so we do have members in all facets of the industry. So we've got licensees that are the producer processors in our state, we're not vertically integrated. So the retailers are a separate license, we have distribution licenses in our state, and we have ancillary companies like myself. And so we have membership in all those sectors. And as far as supporting those different sectors, because we have such a wide, you know, breadth of membership, you know, we do a lot of different things from education, and advocacy, you know, we have a full time lobbyist. And so we're, we're actively working in the legislative arena for better legislation. We just started our new webcast Wednesdays and so we've been doing a lot of educational formats, we just had a great podcast on like the Delta eight, conversation, that's really been a big kind of concern from the regulators perspective and the industry's perspective. So anything that comes up, right, whatever those issues may be, we're on top of those things, we're generally trying to bring the best experts together and put out some educational information. So people understand right. And so, you know, a lot of these new things that pop up like a Delta eight, you know, maybe not everybody, the industry is totally familiar with what that is and what the legalities of or what the LCB view is on it. So we try to bring all those parties together and have a have a robust conversation around those so we can make sure we're going going forward in the right direction. Nice. Um,

Ronjini Joshua: 12:57

so we have a lot of questions. So I'm just trying to organize it in my mind here. So I think I want to kind of stick on what you guys do as an organization as an alliance, because I think one of the biggest things that I would love for people to take away from this particular podcast is that how they can navigate in their state, right, and how they can best practices of kind of establishing themselves and and their collaborations within the state, and how they can maybe potentially collaborate with other states. So what have been, I think, would have been the one of learning from challenges is a big deal. So what have been some of the big challenges that you guys have had, as an alliance as a state independent businesses? What are some of the challenges that they've had, that you guys have kind of worked to help and, and move forward?

Jason Lammers: 13:49

Um, you know, I mean, because there's, in this industry, the challenges are constant, and, you know, regular, I guess, but we've, we've been, we've worked on things from from day one, you know, we've worked on one of the big, big issues we addressed was a rep protection issues, we actually got worked with the state to get the the misdemeanor and felony convictions for simple possession removed and so that was a big advocacy Advocacy Project to be worked on. We've we're constantly and still working on testing issues, we're still working on kind of finalizing pesticide testing in our state and getting and how that looks and what the what the structures are of that who's paying for that, you know, what, what type of testing needs to occur. So there's, there's quite a few issues that obviously come up and so whatever those those issues that do arise, we, we come to the table with our membership and our LCB and legislative group and work towards those issues.

Ronjini Joshua: 14:48

And do like do people come to you as individual organizations and be like, Hey, I'm having this challenge. Like, can you help me get over this?

Jason Lammers: 14:57

Yeah, so like, we just we just had are we monthly meeting we just just as last month, we had one of our new members actually had a member come to us or a potential member. And he had a specific issue around concerns around COVID and masking policies and kind of best practices. And so he actually sat down with Caitlin about that. And, and when we brought that issue to our membership, and so we had him come, he joined our organization, and then actually presented at our last meeting to kind of talk about, you know, best practices around masking and keeping your employees safe and work environment as a as a producer processor. So that was a that was a recent related new COVID related issue that came up, that was a concern for a large processor in the state. And he kind of not only wanted to just make sure everything was buttoned up at his company for his employee safety, but he wanted to, he felt he had a good practice, he wanted to just share that with everybody. And so. So whatever those issues that do arise, like I said, we obviously didn't see that coming up, but somebody brought it to our attention. And so we brought that to our membership. And they brought that in to share that. You know, we also have partnerships with companies like headset, which is a data analytics company. So we utilize their information to help make better decisions. And so we're constantly utilizing their partnership for good accurate data so that you can really understand what what is going on state, we're going to have a podcast with them in the near future talking about 420 impacts for the sales or industry. So that's going to be coming up in the near future.

Ronjini Joshua: 16:27

Um, do you Oh, my goodness, I had it right at the top of my head. And it escaped to me. Um, you were talking about the research? Oh, do you also? Have you also gotten involved in any like unique, you know, standout cases that you guys remember of any issues people have had with legal legal problems, or, I mean, aside from, you know, day to day operations, are there any other like big kind of cases that you guys have come up and worked against with with some of the people in your membership? Anything, I guess what I'm looking for is like a standout thing that you guys have kind of worked towards, as far as either regulation, legalization, dealing with community anything like that.

Jason Lammers: 17:19

What's probably one of the biggest things that we're that we're currently advocating and working towards that we're we're really hopeful we're going to get across the finish line in 2022 is our cannabis commission. And so a lot of industries have commissioned groups. And so like in our state, we have Apple commission with wine Commission's and so those Commission's are board basically collectively put together from stakeholders, and they work on a lot of issues that we're working on in the Alliance. So we're we're working on things to do research and advocate for what's best for the industry. And so that this would be kind of its own unique commission that can do research and study. And so that research that they do, they would get that data back and would be shared across the industry, right. So like, if you're a small business owner, and you don't have the r&d budget to do some research on and growing practice or whatever, that the cannabis commission could come invest in that and then share that that data broadly with the industry. So that's a really important, big step up, I think that would improve the entire state. And that was something that we've been advocating for we have a bill that we do have drafted and it's been pushed in this last legislative session. And it didn't quite get across the finish line. But it did get further along in the legislative process. And so we're on a biennium legislative process in the state. And so anything that had progress this year starts into the next legislative session wherever it stopped this year. So all that progress at this year was was a good step in the right direction. And we're hoping we can get it across the finish line next year. With that, what was the bill? can pull it up? I don't know if I have that. But, but it's the cannabis that for the cannabis commission bill and nobody have against commission in any of the legal states. So we'd be the first to do it. Wow. And it really does kind of seem like a no brainer thing. Right? When you look at other industries. Yeah, yeah. It's not like some wild left field crazy idea. Like it is used widely in a lot of industry groups. And if you ask around, I mean, there's really not many people out there criticizing company work. I mean, they're extremely fun, they work really well. And they benefit, you know, the entire industry. So that I'd say that's probably one of the biggest thing that we're still actively working on. And we're excited that we think it's gonna get across the finish line soon.

Ronjini Joshua: 19:35

You guys are like just you know, leading the pack on the first thing, so that's pretty good. Um, what about what about interesting channel like, missteps? What about mistakes? Have you guys seen any blatant or very clear things that maybe you would have done differently or things that companies have done that were missteps?

Jason Lammers: 20:01

Oh, man, prime and a lot of missteps along the way, right? When you have a brand new industry that kind of legalizes I think everybody has errors along the way. So I don't know if there's any one particular one that stands out. But I would just say, in general, there's just for people that aren't in the industry that are thinking about getting the industry, there's a lot of misconceptions that this industry is a cash cow industry, that it's super easy, you're gonna get rich, I would say that there's a ton of missteps along the way. And a lot of them are legislative and regulatory driven. There's a lot of challenges in the space being really just kind of over regulated over legislative. So people that are in this industry that are doing well, that are profitable, you know, are really impressive business people. Because it's, I would say it's one of the toughest industries to be in, because extra taxation, regulation and legislation around how you have to operate. And if you do any of those things wrong, you know, you're getting in trouble, you're getting fined. And if you do and do it enough, if you do it wrong enough times, you're going to lose your license. And so we've seen that in the state. And we've had we've had labs in the state get in trouble for for bad, bad numbers. You know, we've had licensees get in trouble for not taking plants, you know, we've had, there's definitely what is

Ronjini Joshua: 21:14

what is bad numbers like they were reporting differently.

Jason Lammers: 21:18

Yeah, so we had. So unfortunately, in the state, and I think it's been pretty common for most people, most cannabis legalization states, the THC percentage really became a huge purchasing decision, the customer and so they're going to the package, and they're looking at THC percentages, and that's driving the purchasing decision. Like fact, I think that I might even have some data on this, but it was one of the largest deciding factors for the consumer. They're looking at those THC percentages, right? Oh,

Ronjini Joshua: 21:47

well, I think you've seen a lot of brands pop up saying like were the highest THC content, right?

Jason Lammers: 21:53

Yeah. So. So it's so unfortunate when that when that got pretty, it wasn't didn't take long for people to realize that that was the driving factor in sales. And so as this industry is growing, and people are trying to establish their brands, there's a lot of incentives to gain that right. And so it went so far as to where there was labs that were participating in some of the gamesmanship and giving false numbers and the numbers that were out there were not legitimate. And so those labs have been then addressed and taken care of. And so I think we have a pretty good system. Now, I think most of that's been dealt with. But I mean, I can't I can't say that it's completely gone. I mean, there's probably still some of that out there. And anytime you have drivers like that, that can impact, you know, revenue and market share, I think there's going to always be some people in the space that are going to try to game that system.

Ronjini Joshua: 22:41

Well, and it sucks because it kind of I mean, it hurts an industry that's so like, it's so infant, you're like you're hurting your baby, because later on, you know, it's it's like how are people going to establish that sense of trust? And it's just really the wrong decision, right?

Jason Lammers: 22:59

Yeah, wrong vision as a consumer, like the THC percentage is not the right metric to decide your purchase your purchasing power for your cannabis product, right. I mean, I've had low THC products that were way better products than the one that had a higher THC percentage number because it was grown better and had a different terpene profile, or whatever it was so many factors that I don't even think we honestly fully know, all of the, you know, true ways to grade and analyze the quality of this product. So the idea that somehow one THC percentage number is the deciding factor on quality and what you're going to enjoy is silly to me. I mean, and I equated to alcohol, right? Yeah, very few people unless you're just a kid trying to get drunk like 151 for from or everclear anything along those lines? Oh, yeah. Yeah, highly potent. But if you're not going to probably have that good of a time, and it's going to taste like crap. Right? Yeah. So So I so when they leave, try to do it, the Alliance and is pushing, you know, more of an educational model, right. So maybe we can't completely get the gamesmanship out of the industry, but we can educate the consumers better so that they understand that that THC number really isn't that important at the end of the day, but when it comes to quality and what you're actually getting? Yeah, I

Ronjini Joshua: 24:11

think I think more brands are Well, I think the good brands are taking that like beat as a learning lesson and describing their products differently. of like, you know, you see a lot of like, we were we were looking at the Kiva caminos yesterday, and the way they describe and I don't even that is like not that descriptive, but they were This is uplifting, this is sleep. This is for sleep. This is for you know, energy and and creativity. So I think also some of these brands are tapping into the fact like, hey, it doesn't the percentages and the numbers aren't as important as what it's going to do for you or like how you're going to feel after you do it.

Jason Lammers: 24:52

Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that even I didn't understand much when I was younger before we had legalization is when I was younger and got cannabis occasionally, you know, Cannabis with cannabis. I didn't know what I was getting, I didn't really understand, you know, the different effects and strains that were out there. And so, you know, I was pretty ignorant myself. And then as I got to the industry all sudden, I started seeing all these different choices and options, and they had all these different effects. And some of them, you know, were like, uppers and some were really relaxing and right. And so I there, there's a lot of education that I learned as I got in the industry around cannabis. And, and, you know, we've definitely seen that, you know, there's, there's so many factors to quality that really don't have very little to do with the THC percentage.

Ronjini Joshua: 25:33

Yeah, yeah. Um, so, you know, we're talking about, like, you know, confidence and purchasing basically, right, when we're talking about, like, the branding and how people are describing things. How, what have been your main challenges as an alliance, and I don't know, if this is something that you deal with, you're mentioning consumer education, but for gaining public support and gaining confidence from the public. In the industry itself. I mean, obviously, you guys are the first you probably have a lot of people supporting you guys. But you know, Where, where? What are the challenges you've had in gaining public support? Have you had any?

Jason Lammers: 26:11

Yeah, I mean, there's still definitely a little bit of reefer madness out there. I think everywhere, you know, there's a certain subset of people that are just not ready to allow, you know, they don't they don't want this to this. They don't want it to be legal, and they're still kind of at that old, you know, dogmatic mindset that they were kind of brainwashed into, right. So that's still out there. You like, as an interesting example, even when we worked on those packaging, rule changes. That was a pretty non controversial, you know, adjustment, I thought, and we still had prevention, nonprofit community members coming in trying to challenge us on that. And they were like, because because we were the cannabis team, right, they just naturally assumed we were up to no good. And we were had some hidden agenda. And it was just to increase profits. And we were already rich and, and we literally sat down with them. And our former Ed Laura, at the time, actually ended up having lunch with some of these preventative, the perfect prevention people. And we actually got him to switch their viewpoint because she sat down with him and just kind of just said, Hey, this is what we're doing. And this is why we're doing and she showed them the data. And after lunch, they came back. And this is how to listen and learn at the LCB. And they had showed up that morning to oppose us. And they actually went on record before dinner issues. And so that was kind of a cool story where we had some people that yeah, I think initially had that. No, these are bad people with bad agendas. And then we showed them why we were doing it. And it was 100% around bettering the environment. And they said, Oh, well, okay, you guys can't be all bad. You're you're trying to help the planet out?

Ronjini Joshua: 27:42

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's the other thing. It's like shifting the mindset of people who are in this industry are not bad people to Hey, this is just another business, another industry that needs to do what it needs to do. You know, it's like, it's like, again, it's like you said, Reefer Madness is that negative conception of like, you know, cannabis is so bad. And, and we should keep it away, which is really surprising coming from, you know, a state like Washington.

Jason Lammers: 28:13

Yeah. So I mean, even in a state like ours, where I think we do have wide, wide acceptance and support, there still are, you know, subsets of people, and some of them that are organized, you know, that will come out and oppose you. Just because they think that, you know, they don't agree with what you're doing. And so, if, but if, you know, anytime, I think you can sit down with those people and show them what you're trying to achieve, I mean, in that, in that case, was a perfect example, where, you know, we should just lay our cards on the table and show them what we were trying to get accomplished. And they understood what we were trying to do. And they agreed with our viewpoint, and they switched gears and supported us.

Ronjini Joshua: 28:48

I feel like that's pretty, that's pretty, that's a good outcome. I don't know that everybody would have that outcome. But that's like an awesome outcome to at least they've not not only did they slip, but they went on record, you know, to say that.

Jason Lammers: 29:00

And so we're trying to, we're trying to kind of leverage those relationships and opportunities that we've had in the past and kind of reach out to them in the future as well and say, you know, look, here's another issue, maybe it is a little bit more controversial, maybe it is something that you're not going to be as quick to come to the table on. So but let's sit down and talk right, like now that we've got some of those dialogues open with groups that would otherwise maybe normally post some of our things, so we can come to them before we even work on legislation and say, Look, this is what we're trying to accomplish here. So, you know, maybe you don't maybe you won't support this, but maybe you won't get in our way of it either.

Ronjini Joshua: 29:31

Right? Right. Please, please don't throw any more challenges our way. Oh, boy. Um, so I wanted to kind of go back just a little bit. You talked about Delta eight. And so could you explain what's going on around that like controversy or, or I don't know if the controversy but what's going on? What is delta eight and what's going on around it?

Jason Lammers: 29:57

But I'm not super versed in it. So I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want to speak out of turn. But I can tell you a little bit a little bit about that it's basically synthesize from, I think hemp products. Okay. So it's arguably not technically illegal, and so it could be sold outside anywhere. And obviously that there's huge concerns around that because people are saying this some psychoactive traits to it. And so if people don't want psychoactive products being sold at a 711 or right, or something like that, and then obviously the LCB that regulates our industry in the state, they want all psychoactive cannabinoids sold through the regulatory system. So that tested and vetted and and so that's that's kind of basically it in a nutshell. We had an excellent webinar on our podcast with the alliance that had some experts on it really dove into the specific surrounding it.

Ronjini Joshua: 30:51

You guys have that on demand on your website? Right? I think.

Jason Lammers: 30:55

Yeah, I think it will be on our YouTube. So typically, we'll put it out on our webinar Wednesday we do those live when we have actual people on and then we'll generally put replay it on our YouTube. So if it's not on there yet, it should be on there soon. Yeah. So

Ronjini Joshua: 31:08

if you if you don't know about Delta eight, and you guys want to learn a little bit more, you can check out the cannabis Alliance, YouTube. Okay, cool.

Jason Lammers: 31:16

And what do we have Jerry Whiting, Joy Beckerman, and I believe a doctor from University of Washington on there. So it was a really high level conversation, really delve into the deep details about you know, exactly what it is how it's emphasized what the definition of it is, or should be, and kind of what the implications are of it and do a really good webinar that went on just a couple weeks ago. So

Ronjini Joshua: 31:39

cool. Thank you. Yeah, the watch that it's a good, it's a good, it's a good topic to cover.

Jason Lammers: 31:46

Right now, because obviously, there's a lot of implications around it. Right, there's a variety of everybody involved is has concerns around it, and, and needs to be addressed and dealt with probably in a regulated fashion in some sense.

Sheldon: 32:00

Absolutely. I mean, that could lead to a market of people essentially making their own version of some LSD, like chemical, and it just gets out of hand. So it is important to have some of those regulations in place for sure. Um,

Ronjini Joshua: 32:13

so I want to go back to kind of new businesses in the space, how you guys work with them to kind of get approved and and meet their challenges? What are actually like, I just going to the basics, and you probably know this from your business. What are some of the common challenges you're seeing businesses face as they enter into the cannabis space?

Jason Lammers: 32:40

Aside from funding? Um, so I mean, most of our businesses in Washington are pretty established right now. You know, I would say that a lot of the early stage development was done more, you know, five, six years ago, we've actually seen a lot of turn in our industry, unfortunately, you know, we had I think of about 1100, prusa, processor licensees initially. And I think there's probably only about half of those that are active now. And so there's been quite a bit of rotation. And well, it's our industry. And I honestly didn't anticipate that to, you know, continue a little bit, because as we continue to expand and work towards federal legalization, you know, I think those kind of consolidation periods are a little bit inevitable no matter what. So I think, maybe more so as opposed to business development, I think the biggest focus now is, you know, how do we support our membership and kind of getting them ready for that next transition? And, you know, going into this, what we think is most likely going to be some banking access, pass on a federal level, and maybe even scheduling, I don't think we're gonna have full legalization this year, but I think some some federal likely, legislation is coming. And that's going to have an impact on our members, right, you know, our state and really everywhere, you're gonna have to start thinking about this new dichotomy and whether that means that banking is opened up, does that mean big money comes into our state starts investing in companies. So maybe so so I think instead of five, six years ago, we were worried about how to start a business now. I think people are still here. And they're, they're like, you know, again, I think anybody that's started a cannabis business five years ago, is still running it today is a rockstar, right? They did a great job. They've been through five years of a very difficult industry, and they're still here. And so how do we make sure that they continue to see thrive, you know, as things continue to change, because even if you didn't, did well through a five year period through a bunch of struggles, but unfortunately, the struggles aren't over, right, there's going to be a whole new set of dynamics in the business space that we've kind of got to get ready for.

Ronjini Joshua: 34:38

Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. I bet. It's cool. That's cool. You guys are at that, like you said, the next stage of that, and it's, I think it's even worth knowing that is that there's the startup stage, and then there's the now let's manage, you know, regulations and money. And then I'm sure there's going to be like a more mature stage of how you keep the market fluid and and growing. So shifting over to the industry, we had talked a little bit about in our pre conversation about like, how federal legalization of cannabis would potentially affect the legacy market. So can you can you talk a little bit about that as, as a state with more established brands and companies in their? How, what is the transition looking like for that?

Jason Lammers: 35:23

I think you've got, at least in our state, I think you've got two types of owners. You know, there's, there's owners that are trying to position themselves for expansion and possibly acquisition. And so you've got brands that are that are hoping to get, you know, a deep pocket investor to come in and scoop them up. And so those businesses, I think, are kind of preparing in a different way. And then you got a bunch of other businesses that are more on the small, medium size, that they just want to, you know, continue to sell and produce great cannabis, and they want to, you know, not get gobbled up, you know, in this kind of new transition phase, right, so, so maybe you don't want to get acquired, but you want to figure out how you can continue to thrive and survive through this ever evolving landscape, you know, you've already gone through five years of a lot of changes and transitions, and now you've got to kind of get ready for this next adjustment phase. And so not everybody wants to get acquired, right? You know, some people just want to carve out their lanes, put out their products that they're passionate about. And, and so, so that business model, and those plans are quite different from the person trying to maybe build up a multi state operation and possibly create a national brand. Right?

Ronjini Joshua: 36:31

Yeah. That's a good, that's a really good point. Um, what do you what are some of the things that you guys are kind of working on? You mentioned the one big the one bill, yeah, the bill that you guys are working on. But are there any other initiatives that you're working towards, or just seeing that are kind of coming up, as you are growing as we're like, evolving in this industry.

Jason Lammers: 36:56

So we've got some exciting stuff planned for the legislative cycle in 2022. As I mentioned, we're still working on that Canvas commission bill, which is really important. And I think we'll get that across the finish line, we're also still lobbying for an excise tax removal from our syntax on cannabis for patients. That really should be a no brainer, right? patients shouldn't be paying tax. And on our say, is 37%, which is the highest in the nation, though, it really creates a barrier for people that really do use it for medical needs and can't otherwise afford it. And so that's an important bill that we're working on. And hopefully, we'll get that one done. We're actually one of the only if not the only state that doesn't have Congress legalized, oh, people outside of Washington don't know that. And so we've been for quite a few years advocating for homebrew. And while that doesn't have a lot of business implications, it's just again, one of those things, that is just the right thing to do. Yeah, you should have that freedom to grow their own plants in their house if they choose to. Right. And it's, and I and I believe it is really more of a quality issue as well, right. Because if you maybe can't afford cannabis, if you have homegrown and you know, you can, you can pretty easily afford to grow a few plants and maybe take care of getting your cannabis even more affordable fashion that way, so. So that's something that we're working on, and then on the environmental space, which

Ronjini Joshua: 38:15

that's, that's a good point, I feel like if you should be able to grow your own, like herb garden, you should be able to, you know, or flowers or any kind of fruits and vegetables, it's like the same thing. It's like, the food industry, you know, 100 years later, it's

Jason Lammers: 38:30

just, it's Yeah, and we actually got we actually commissioned a study on on homegrown it actually showed because there was some people that said, Well, maybe it's going to drop potentially away from the business segment a little bit. And we actually had a study done that actually showed that if the worst case scenario would still be a net positive, and that most of the most likely outcomes would be it would actually be a net positive to business as well. Right? You'd like homebrew as a kind of an analog. And so home brewing is accurate data that shows the addition of allowing for homebrew and what that's done to the beer industry has been nothing but been a net positive for the for the beer industry as a whole.

Ronjini Joshua: 39:09

Yeah, I think it's a part of the whole education process, like crafting education for consumers, they get to learn even if they don't do a home grow themselves and maybe like, like me, I do not have a green thumb. I kill every plant that comes in my door. But you know, I like to, I like to try and also like the fact that I wanted to try to grow something made me look at Okay, what kind of plants do I want to grow? You know, what kind of soil do I need? What kind of tools what I need to be able to do it at home? And then be like, Okay, well, you know what, I don't want to do that, but I'll just go buy a plant from like, you know, Trader Joe's and not grow my own basil or something. So, I do think it's like, you know, a sense of consumer education and like understanding of like, Okay, this is just a plant, you know, we don't have to be scared of it number one, and then if they just want to get their own thing, there. Like, well, I don't want to grow it, but I still want it. And maybe it does encourage them a little bit more. It makes it more commonplace. Like, right like it makes it like you walk into a friend's house and sees them growing some plants which we have this awesome interview. Next time. It's they're called a pot. pot for pot. I don't know if you've heard of, but they're raised in California. But yeah, they they're basically enabling people to grow at home. And you guys can't do it yet. But but I think it's awesome. I think the important part of education is what I'm saying. Yeah,

Jason Lammers: 40:34

yeah. So I think hopefully, we'll get that done next year as well. So that's an important one. And then we're also working with other groups outside of cannabis. I've personally been working with different environmental groups. We've got some great groups like zero waste, Washington in our state, we've also got some groups that we work with on a California national search of Action Council, resource Innovation Institute, Oregon's really excellent organization that are working on, you know, how do we create a sustainable industry around cannabis and then other these some of these groups are just outside of cannabis entirely working on sustainability in general. And so our state's actually working on an EPR bill, which would be a bruiser response, responsibility bill. So basically, all industries in the state would have some responsibility towards maybe recycling content in their packaging, and different things like that, that would start to address some of our packaging waste, on a large scale. So this would be outside of Canvas, this would be everybody in the state help with that. That would be incredible. Yeah. So California is working on that there's actually I think about a half a dozen states that are working on similar bills right now. And so there's definitely a movement going on on a national level, but it's happening at the grassroots state level right now. And so the cannabis Alliance has been working with those organizations as well. And so we're excited to do what we can to kind of draw our support behind them going into the next legislative session. And they've unfortunately, had a lot of industry groups kind of pushing back on it, because the natural business, you know, respond to those types of things, because it's having creating businesses to change a little bit and adapt, and maybe it costs, you know, their initial response is no, we don't want that. But, you know, that's the cool thing about Canvas, right? You know, we're a different business, we're a different industry group. And we kind of, you know, put our value structure a little differently than just purely profits. And so, you know, at the end of the day, we got to, we got to have a sustainable industry going forward. And this is part of that sustainability. And so, so we're, we're excited to support those initiatives, and hopefully see some some big change coming in that in that space as well.

Ronjini Joshua: 42:39

So I've heard you say sustainability, and I've heard sustainability talks about just in almost many, many conversations we have, um, what are those key things with sustainability that make it such a addressing issue for the cannabis industry?

Jason Lammers: 42:57

Um, I mean, I guess that's one thing that I got really excited about, when I got into spaces, there's a lot of people that have a little bit different visions of the future, you know, I think, I think a lot of people that were in cannabis were in it kind of as a, you know, as a disruptive thing as it was, you know, even when it was not legal, and then now they're excited, they now have a legal voice, and now they have representation, and they pay taxes. And so now, they're starting to speak their minds, you know, and they have some different viewpoints maybe than the traditional status quo. And so it's an exciting space to be in, because there's a lot of people in cannabis that care for other things outside of profits. I mean, profits are important. And if you don't have profits, you're not a business, you're not staying around. So, you know, you definitely got to have focus on that. But you know, there's more to business and more to life than just the bottom line, in my opinion, and exciting to see a lot of people we can have the space to share that viewpoint.

Ronjini Joshua: 43:49

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, packaging, you'd mentioned packaging. And I don't know if those packaging requirements were something to put are the packaging requirements, something that are put together by like CPG groups, or is it like a legal law thing?

Jason Lammers: 44:05

All of the packaging requirements are put together by the LCB liquor and cannabis board. Okay. Okay. So and so that's so that's what we go to, if we if we, if we see areas we need to improve, we have to sit down with the LCD and and try to improve those rules. We've done that a couple times already. And I still arguably see many rooms for many, much room for improvement in the future. So we'll probably be working on some other issues there. But yeah, it's just definitely encouraging to be a part of an industry that shares Yeah, I don't feel like I'm just like the lone voice out here trying to get something accomplished in a real sense. Like what what are you looking at you like what are you trying to do over here? Yeah, I

Ronjini Joshua: 44:44

think it has a little bit to do with like the connection to nature when you're talking about cannabis and it's like, got like that whole trend of before cannabis. Well, I guess cannabis has been around for a while but like, before this movement, what became larger there was like, that whole like You know, returned to farming movement, obviously, in Washington and Washington did well, I mean, everywhere though, too. Yeah. I mean, there's rooftop gardening, there's all these people that are trying to get back to nature. And then with the pandemic, that went, like almost full circles, like everybody was like, okay, we need to chill out, like, let's take walks, let's be healthier, like people were kind of getting back in tune with, and I think it does go pretty nicely hand in hand with the industry of like, okay, let's not just create more trash, let's kind of also be mindful of what we're doing. Because that's what the I think the industry is, like, just be more mindful, you know, like, be can be more connected. It's such a good, like, parallel for that. for that.

Jason Lammers: 45:45

I think one thing that gets lost sometimes is, sustainability doesn't have to be a net negative for business, you know, if you look right, you can actually flip it and turn into a huge positive, especially if you want to be a leader in this space. You know, there's opportunities that you can really use it in your branding and your in your company, you know, I'm really put a message out there that you're trying to do things differently. And you can really leverage that as an opportunity and not have it be a cost burden or a negative or hassle. You can literally flip that as a revenue generator, and you can become a leader and a winner and be more profitable doing the right thing, right. That's the business model people should should be looking for. Because then it's a win win. Right? You win in the environment.

Ronjini Joshua: 46:25

Yeah, no, I really love that. And I do think like, you know, well, of course, you know, like, places like California, Oregon, Washington, we all have to kind of like we put that first we try I think we have like a trend of kind of putting that first anyway. But it would be nice if everyone followed suit. Um, is there anything that we didn't cover some of the stuff that you guys are doing as an alliance?

Jason Lammers: 46:55

Um, I think we covered quite a bit, talked about our webinar Wednesdays what we got going on with the legislative agenda. Why can I could talk real quick and give a plug are happier that we do every Tuesday at four o'clock, which is a cool idea that we started from the pandemic. Every Tuesday at four, we have a zoom link, and you can find it on our website, the canvas alliance.us. And it's open to anybody. And it's just an open fun, happy hour experience wherever you log in. And it's just totally open format. It's different every week, we have a decent amount of regulars. But we also have new people every week. And it started when the pandemic started. And it's just kind of become a really fun opportunity to network with people in the industry. And because it's on zoom, you know, we've had people from all different states coming on, we've had people from California and Nevada and on the east coast. And in that period of time, like it started out, just kind of fun networking opportunity. But in that a year and a half, we've had this happy hour going on now. You know, we've had business inspiration in this thing. We've had people like you basically get inspired and start companies from the conversations in this happy hour. So there's been a lot of really cool like, synergy and like networking going on there. And, and it's just a cool fun, you know, opportunity to connect with people when otherwise we've kind of been limited, you know, there. Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: 48:14

Well, and like you said, like with other states, that's really cool to connecting with people that are doing something similar, the same thing in another state. And you guys can compare notes and whatnot.

Jason Lammers: 48:24

So yeah. That's been a cool opportunity for people to kind of connect through this tough time. Yeah. Yeah, we talked, we talked about the legislative stuff. And I think we think we covered just about everything.

Ronjini Joshua: 48:38

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jason Lammers: 48:42

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Ronjini Joshua: 48:43

Yeah. And I'm sure we'll come back when something big happens. I feel like I feel like well have you guys to be a source for us? For anything that's coming up, because you're a little bit ahead of the game. They're happy to be a resource for you guys. Awesome. Well, have a great weekend. Thank you so much. And that's it. See you next time. Thank you.

Jason Lammers: 49:05

Thanks for having me.

Ronjini Joshua: 49:09

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