Ep: 35 - What's actually in your weed? An interview w/ Ben Gelt, Co-founder - Cannabis Certification Council

Have you ever wondered what's actually in your weed?

Today we talked to  Ben Gelt co-founder at the Cannabis Certification Council (CCC).  During our conversation Ben walked us through what certification is, what it means, how it happens, and why you should have it.  Next, Ben talked about the food + wine  industry and how that’s been an example for building certifications and standard in cannabis industry. But first, let’s do our product shout outs:

Heirloom Pet Products -  using the highest quality, 100% organic Water Soluble Broad Spectrum Hemp in all of their fast acting pet products.  Check out their website!

More information:
Cannabis Certification Council
https://www.instagram.com/cannacertcouncil/
https://twitter.com/CannaCouncil

The CCC is a nonprofit standard holding body focused on providing consumer and industry education, transparency and choice in the cannabis industry. 

Through our #WhatsInMyWeed campaign and the Cannabis Sustainability Symposium, the Council has become a leading advocate for clean, ethical and sustainable business practices in the cannabis industry. 

Transcript

Ronjini Joshua: 0:11

Today we got to talk to Ben Gelt, the co founder of the cannabis certification Council. And in our conversation, he walked us through what certification is what it means how it happens. I mean, it's pretty crazy all the certifications you can get. But I never knew all the stuff about certification. He blew my mind the hoops that people have to jump through, but also with his care for like really quality products. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They so he talks about why you should have it. He also talks about like the food and wine industry and how that's been an example, for building the certification and standards in the cannabis industry. Hi, today, our guest is Ben Gelt, the co founder of the

Ben Gelt: 0:53

I'm well, how are you? Yeah, sure. You know, growing up in Denver, I had been cannabis certification Council, a nonprofit focused on sustainability and standards since 2014, and the leading advocate for clean ethical and sustainable sustainable business practices in the cannabis industry. Hi, Ben, how are you doing today? exposed to, you know, cannabis as part of the kind of Colorado lifestyle as a as a teenager. So I've been conscious of it and, you know, participating in some form or another since the late 90s. In the, the regulated market that we're all engaged in now, I've been active since 2011, really a little bit before. You know, I have a background in public affairs, and as an entrepreneur. So when I first started in the industry, I had a handful of different clients, including the University of Colorado toxicology lab. And in doing public affairs work for the university, I learned a lot about pesticide testing, and all these kind of rules that the state of Colorado was promoting at the time. And this is circa, beginning 2011. So really, through that work is where I really learned about a lot of the, you know, quality assurance, quality control, measures that initially Colorado and then as I began to look around the country, I really started tracking what other states were doing, when it came to, again, quality issues, waste issues, things regarding energy, water, you know, environmental footprint. And yeah, so now, the council is really focused on teaching the industry about sustainable and quality practices. And we also, you know, our mission statement is teaching consumers and industry about sustainable and quality practices. So we have both kind of a, an industry facing series of content and programming and information, and then also some consumer education campaigns that we do.

Ronjini Joshua: 3:44

That's, that's really interesting, because I've always wondered like, what the certifications really are, and people always kind of like question like, does this really matter? Is this real? Is it fake? Is it like, you know, something people brought up? Is it marketing? So I think it's good for us to know, like, why is certification of things like this important? And why does it matter?

Unknown: 4:03

Sure. So I mean, generically, we all enjoy certification. Yeah. So there's, there's many different forms then that are out there, that kind of collectively known as certification, there's process validation, there's, you know, certifications, there's all sorts of things that you can do. So, again, if you look into other consumer categories, like electronics, for example, every electronic product, your iPhone, your clock, radio, your lamp, is all certified by I think one of three major certifying bodies that deal with electrical goods, you cannot sell anything really that like plugs in or has electricity that hasn't met a standard of safety and quality in the United States, and that's true in most Western societies in particular. So broadly speaking, we use these processes in our society to say to us to consumers and others, this product is safe, it's not going to explode in your house, it's not going to explode in your body, if it's something that you need, hey, of course, it's it's not a perfect system, we see product recalls and all kinds of different categories. But the you know, these, these standards are there so that we can broadly know that when I go to the supermarket, or when I go to the auto dealership, or when I go to the Best Buy, that these products are safe, and that they are what they say they are. And so for cannabis, we really need the same things. And so whereas when you go to the supermarket, you can buy organic berries, and then you can go buy, you know, certified Fairtrade eggs and cage free, and grass fed beef. And you can buy all these things that have distinctions that are in some form or another certified right, like we trust that the label that's there tells us that what it says is true. So with cannabis, we just don't have those same mechanisms in place

Ronjini Joshua: 6:08

you brought up a really good point is now and you're mentioning like grass fed cage free all this stuff? What are the things that actually matter when it comes to cannabis? And obviously, organic pesticides? That's always a thing for any kind of anything that grows, but like, what are the certain, you know, parameters that are impacting like that end product when it comes to cannabis?

Ben Gelt: 6:30

Well, that's one of the things right now, is that there are? It's such a it's a tough question. Because the reality is, is that in every state, right, in every regulated market, the rules are a little different. So they have one set of rules for testing and quality in Colorado, they have another in Washington, another in California, another an Oregon, another in Michigan, another in Ohio. Now they're in Massachusetts, right? Every state really is an island. So that for a consumer, you are basically saying, Okay, I think that the state that I reside in is going to be able to do all these things and create these mechanisms for safety. And that expectation exists because that's what we have in life. Right? Yeah, we walk around, that's what it is, again, supermarket liquor store, auto dealership, Best Buy doesn't matter. Right? It's like, we know that it's gonna be the same with cannabis. That's just not true. So even the msos, right, that are operating and five states senseis 15 states, they have compliance people in every place, making sure that that the rules in that state are being followed to a tee. And a lot of times that means that production needs to be different. Sometimes that means sourcing is different. That consistency is a big challenge in cannabis, because we don't have interstate commerce. So those kinds of certifications for cannabis really don't exist. Because state, state governments are not equipped to really deal with quality assurance, quality control with good manufacturing practices, GMP, which is becoming more and more of a buzzword in the cannabis industry, state bodies, state states are not in the business. In any category of doing that work. They rely on federal rules and infrastructure. And again, with cannabis, because we have federal prohibition still in our country, in the United States. We're dealing with this, you know, like overarching thing that says you can't do that, but do anything about it. So states are kind of left to their own to figure it out. And again, when you when you kind of unpack all that and look at what's happened in the last 10 years, states have become very effective at taxing and controlling the cannabis industry. And a lot of that is because of the directive from the federal government, which was basically, don't let it leave the say, don't let it be near kids don't let you know, international gangs or local gangs, like don't let criminal enterprise come into the space. So states that Okay, we're gonna follow those rules. You know, nothing near schools can't be too close to a border in some states, like there's a lot of rules about how we're going to control it, and then of course, tax it. And then you know, the quality control the environmental concerns have been secondary at best, particularly, you know, in the early part of the legalization kind of era 2010 2012 through like 15. In the last couple of years, states have begun to kind of realize okay, there are a lot of environmental and other implications here with this industry. You know, some of the rules that have been in place have prevented the industry from having better practices when it comes to sustainability around based for example, the state of California still treats the all of the orders organic wastes which is the stuff that comes out of cultivation, so all of the soil and the plant material that can't be commercialized in California, you can't compost it, you can't move it around freely and treat it like just natural organic waste, you have to render it unrecognizable, mix it with plastic. And the result is is we send a huge amount of this waste to landfills that could be used for like composting or anaerobic digestion. There's some really cool stuff in Colorado, we finally addressed this not last summer, but the summer before and change, change those waste rules. So now in Colorado, you know, composting, gasification, anaerobic digestion are all allowed moving that waste off of the off of the site to you know, commercial composters and other places is allowed. And that just simply allows more waste to be diverted away from landfills and be reused. So and with the example of anaerobic digestion, for example, you can literally take the organic wastes from a marijuana facility, put it in an in a digester. And there's a pretty straightforward process that's very technologically sound and economically efficient. That turns that into natural gas, and you can turn it into an energy stream. So you know, these kinds of possibilities are only now starting to open up and only in a very small amount of states. Maine has rules like that Colorado has rules like that. Virtually every other state in the United States doesn't allow for that. Right. So we have a long ways to go stuff. So with your background and toxicology and your understanding of this, what would you say are the most necessary certifications that cannabis growers and distributors should have? So, yeah, Sheldon, I think, to me, the answer is what certification is going to have the greatest impact at market. Because right now, if you're a cannabis grower, you know, most consumers are not quite there. Yeah, realizing all of these realities, most consumers are still like, wow, this is illegal. Right. And all the data says, you know, consumers are valuing costs and convenience above everything else, right. So, again, whereas many of us go to whatever supermarket and get the Green Label berries, and get the organic, this and blah, blah, blah, and then go to the liquor store and get like a nice bottle of wine and a craft beer. And then the same people are going to a dispensary and they're like, what's the strongest, cheapest shit you got? Yeah, so, to me, the most critical need right now from a market perspective, is a label that will signal to people Hey, this product is of a higher quality that I'm willing to either that I'm going to buy more of, because I really want that it reflects my values, or I'm going to pay more for. So I think that that is an organic label that is truly understandable, accessible, clearly labeled. So the council is developing the organically grown cannabis certification, we'll be going to market with it this summer. All of the technical work is done. We're just kind of finishing out now developing the seals and some of the kind of mechanics of logistics and how some of the operations work. But we believe that a seal that says organically grown cannabis on a package will help signal to consumers, hey, this product is a little different than the one next to it to pay extra for organic. So if you again go to the supermarket, berries get a 55% Premium organic over conventional eggs get 110% premium, yeah, or over conventional. And with cannabis, right, if you can get a 5% premium, you are talking about dollars.

Ronjini Joshua: 14:01

Well, and I imagine I mean, you've got to you've got to assume and just with organic like I didn't, you know I buy more organic stuff today than I did before because of you know, the education portion of it. But you've got to assume that most people are not going to educate themselves yet. Like you said, they're just so excited that they can get it that they might not yet educate themselves. How long do you think it's going to be? until like the market matures to a level where people understand the Hey, there's a difference, and I should pay attention to that difference?

Ben Gelt: 14:32

Um, I'm hoping that we accelerate. Yeah, of course, regrown label the organically growing cannabis label. And so part of our kind of theory behind this is that simply by making a label that doesn't require much investigation on the behalf of the consumer, yeah, we we've identified and you can go to our website, cannabis cert.org. We have a page that that lists about, I think 12 or 15 different certifications that are currently available. We've actually identified Well over three dozen total that are currently out there available to marijuana cultivators and processors. The fundamental problem that we see in the marketplace is that all of the existing labels require some sort of explanation. So a great example would actually be the state of California, the state of California is developing their own organic program for marijuana, they're going to call it the Oh, Cal program. What does that mean? Right, right. And how much money is the state of California gonna spend on doing some sort of education campaign around the Oh, cow program? My guess is zero, because California, like every other state in the Union doesn't have the money to spend on what are truly extraneous education campaigns. To me, what I see there is there's an obvious need, even regulators are starting to see if we need to do something to help define what products are helped clarify the marketplace, create some standards, and some transparency. So but again, okay, so what, what is that? So we feel as though a label that says organically grown cannabis is something that consumers won't need to ask what does that mean? They may say, Why do they have that label versus somebody else? Yeah. And for bud tender, also, same thing doesn't require a huge amount of education, even if they have no education. Yeah. One look at the other and say, Well, this one, it says, organically grown cannabis that's probably organically grown.

Ronjini Joshua: 16:34

For the sake of just, you know, me being the dumbest consumer available. What does organically grown mean?

Ben Gelt: 16:43

Yeah, I mean, in our case, and you can again, go to our website, and this, this, the language of the standard is available for the public to read. If blowers are interested, we also have all of the other technical stuff. So we have a bonus checklist. What it means Ronjini is is that you are engaged in our case in a living and living soil production. For us, what we've developed with organically grown cannabis certification is what we believe to be a baseline standard of organic production for cannabis. So there's a bunch of things that are our standard is not it's not a regenerative standard, it's not even specifically sustainable. There are some elements about it that are kind of unsustainable, by default, living soil being a big part of that. But it essentially says, we certify that this production has been carried out with organic methods. We've also delineated between indoor greenhouse and outdoor so that you will carry indoor, outdoor greenhouse and organically grown cannabis. So it's just a very simple baseline certification that says you are conducting the most basic of organic practices and we have verified it.

Ronjini Joshua: 18:04

So when it comes to So right now, I mean, you're seeing like just a crazy flow of like white labeling and things like that, because not everybody can have a farm. So you know, how does that work? How does a certification work with you guys with a company that maybe is white labeled their actual like plant the actual product, but is reselling it? And do they get those certification? Or does the farmer get the certification? Or can that to carry over how does that work?

Ben Gelt: 18:31

So that it would carry over so and we're, we've built this into it, because, as you say, like, there's a lot of that going on you in many markets, you see larger entities coming in and essentially, you know, not doing the cultivation, only sourcing and having production etc. So, the answer is that if production if a grower is certified, and they have product coming out of it, we are agnostic to the brand, we simply connected to the production. So if Ronjini if you're growing, you know, flour, but you're actually you know, selling it through Sheldon because you're not interested in any kind of b2c stuff. You don't want to do marketing, and you just want to grow it and like wholesale it and get it out of there. That's why Yeah, our our steel is attached to your production, if Sheldon is buying it and wanting to market it as such, he has those rights. So essentially sticks to the plant. And we'll you know, it's not quite as simple as that. But there are we've developed those mechanisms so that Sheldon, in this instance is able to use our label.

Ronjini Joshua: 19:39

Well, I mean, I think that seems like a benefit for the growers to that they can say like, Okay, well this is, you know, because there are there are some growers that have like a vertically integrated business and they're also doing consumer, but then they're also selling to other retail. So I mean, that's I feel like that's a kind of a calling card and a benefit like hey, we're certified organically grown. You can promote There's if you if you're selling our product.

Ben Gelt: 20:02

Exactly. And again, when you look at it for us, the only way that this will be successful is if the certification either creates a premium for the product, or a higher volume of sales through brand through, you know, affinity and loyalty, right. And again, I think when you look in the consumer packaged goods space, the organic label is by far the highest performer. There is no other certification on the planet that performs the way in organic certification does. And you know, the number two would be fair trade. I already kind of ticked off some of the premiums that organic gets Fairtrade tends to top out at about a 1% 1% premium. So it's, it's really not there. The other example that you like, potential

Ronjini Joshua: 20:55

non GMO, right?

Ben Gelt: 20:57

Not a big premium. Now, yeah, it's like those consumers are buying that stuff. You know, like, I should say it the other way those brands are responding to what consumers are doing and giving them that option. There's, there's really not a deep premium around that the way that there is with organic. And a lot of that just has to do with education and time, right. It's been around for a longer period of time than these other concepts. And we've now had it really drilled into our brain. So the last 20 plus years, that organic means cleaner and less chemicals and toxins. And, again, for us as we look down at those three dozen plus certifications, process, validations, etc. There's not a single one that clearly signals in the name what it is to, you know, a consumer on the street, right?

Ronjini Joshua: 21:51

Um, for, for organic, what is the difference between so I'm assuming like, who like, who does the actual organic label at this point? Like the the Is it the FDA? Or like, Is it a different organization? Like, how does that work? How does the current standing of organic work and why wouldn't that work for cannabis?

Ben Gelt: 22:11

So the the organic system that most of us are familiar with is is overseen by the USDA? Isn't that it's just really not available for marijuana producers is because of federal prohibition. It Again, there's a there is a more nuanced reality there. There are people out there that would argue that the letter of the rules and the law and the Spirit would say that you can certify marijuana as USDA Organic. Part of the problem is that none of the certifying bodies that are out there that carry out the inspecting and auditing and conduct the certifications are comfortable doing that, because there is this federal prohibition. And there's a concern that if I take that risk and work with a marijuana business and certify them, that I could lose my accreditation with the USDA. So it's a federal program that we're mostly familiar with as consumers. And that is the fundamental issue. really clear path to access that for an industry that still is in federal, and why is it that they would lose the they could risk losing their accreditation? You know, Sheldon, it's just a risk. It's just a feeling thing. I think it's like, when you we it's been a few years since I really studied but but when you read it all, you know it, any good lawyer will tell you anything. Depends, right? Yeah. So we read it, it's like, you could interpret it this way, you could interpret it another way. Most people when you're in that position, regardless of what the issue is, and there's just a huge amount of ambiguity and not great clarity. Most people are gonna say, I'm gonna just opt for the status quo and not risk. So the seven the risk is, is that if you were to apply a federal program to a federally prohibited business, that that may violate some part of your agreement to be an accredited certifier against the standard.

Ronjini Joshua: 24:17

I mean, it's kind of it's kind of like the height just lost my thought. But like, it's kind of like the whole banking situation of like a lot of banks and why they don't support cannabis own businesses. They don't want to be you know, they don't want to be caught for money laundering.

Ben Gelt: 24:33

And they just don't want the hassle. Because there are hundreds of banks that are working with it. And most of them do it in a very controlled fashion. Yeah, like, we're only going to give you this very limited set of services, and we're not going to do all this normal stuff that we do for any other business. And it's purely about we don't want the trouble, right? they've they've read all the stuff. And it's, it's not like these rules are written by doubt. Not like, it's open to interpretation, right? And so again, when you have a climate of federal prohibition, most actors were there, their core part of their business is not in marijuana, when they're like, well, do I take this risk and maybe get some, like little boost from interacting this industry? Probably not. Because if it puts most of my business at risk, why would I do that?

Sheldon: 25:24

Right? I do forget that they're profiting from doing the research for a company, which makes them involved. So yeah, okay. Right.

Ronjini Joshua: 25:33

Yeah. So okay, so going back to your program and your certification. So what is the cost for something like organically certified cannabis.

Ben Gelt: 25:43

So it'll depend on the size of your operation, there's an application fee that we expect to top out at about $500. So that is, that's the upfront cost. And then the reason it will depend is the the location, the size, the production type, it will just vary depending on the the certifying body that you get. So let me back up and talk a little bit more about structure. So we just talked about the federal kind of program. So the way that works is there's a thing called the NOP the National Organic practices that is adopted by the USDA. And that is essentially the kind of framework for the USDA Organic program, the USDA, and that structure is what is known as the standard holding body. These other groups that are out there that go conduct the auditing, and the inspecting these people that I'm saying are concerned about their accreditation, there are what are called certifying bodies. So we have really used that exact same approach, which is very common in certifications, regardless of what type of thing you're looking at, where you have a group that publishes and promotes and defends the standard. They are this the standard holding body, that is what we do. So we've in the standard, we're publishing it, we're going to defend it. We work with neutral third party independent groups that are certifying bodies, we have a very similar accreditation system with our program that the USDA does. So we've structured it so that anybody who's accredited to certify against the USDA Organic program would qualify to certify against ours. That format does not put their accreditation at risk with the USDA, it's just a different revenue stream for them. And certifying bodies typically certify against many, many standards so that they have some options for revenues, right. So what it would cost for a grower, again, will depend on where they are the proximity to a certifying body for that production, and the size of their production, right. Because if you have, say, a massive, you know, multi, like acre facility, and it's just enormous, it's going to take the inspector a little more. Yeah. And so again, the way that it's structured as we are the counsel is removed from that process, we will receive an application from you will, you know, take the fee will confirm that your license and that you're all the things that you say you are, we will then put that application into our pool of certifying bodies. And you would get phone calls from two or three or however many certifiers are in your area that would say, Hey, we saw that you apply for the organically grown cannabis certification. We are a certifying body and we'd love to work with you to help you achieve the certification. And they'll kind of give us some prices. And so in an optimal situation, producers would have some choices between which certifier is going to come in to their farm in the beginning of the program, we don't expect that to really play out and we expect to have a smaller number of certifying bodies, and you probably won't have a huge amount of options of like, Oh, I'm gonna choose this group or that group. And let me answer a little more directly, I think that producers can expect to see, probably somewhere between, you know, for like 35, or$4,000, up to, you know, five or$6,000 for the certification process. Most of the money again, goes to the certifying body to cover their time and their energy and the work that they do to audit and inspect. And we think that that's a very reasonable cost for something that again, we believe will have an immediate effect on the shelf, right, because again, we're not going to we're not going to have a million dollars to spend and we're not going to need to spend that million dollars to help people understand what organically grown cannabis is. Right? Right. We're gonna have a whether they really know or not, they're gonna think they know.

Ronjini Joshua: 29:47

Yeah, it's just like a sociation word association. Yeah. They understand. Yeah, yeah,

Ben Gelt: 29:54

there's a lot of these things that are out there in the marketplace. It's like, well, it could mean that it's sustainable, or it could mean Whether it's this or that right, not totally clear what some of these things are.

Ronjini Joshua: 30:04

Well, and that said, you mentioned, you have lots of certifications. So organically grown is probably the best, I would say recognizable, the most well known as far as wording. But are there other certifications that you guys have that you recommend? Or that you see that that our might pick up traction, like, sustainable is like maybe another? I don't know if it's another version of organic? I mean, when you put them all together, it's a little bit overlapping, but what do you what do you what are the some of the other certifications that people can go for?

Ben Gelt: 30:34

Sure. So you know, I think that the kind of North Star for certification right now in the cannabis industry is the Sun and Earth certification, which is a regenerative organic standard from a group group in California. It's an it's a national program, we're great friends of that organization, we share some of the same patrons and really a similar outlook. And again, so whereas the organically grown cannabis certification is kind of that first run with the low hanging bar, the southern Earth certification. regenerative organic is like, the it's the North Star, right? Like in a perfect world. All agriculture, not just cannabis, right? Like, who cares about cannabis? All? Yeah, with regenerative, right, we need to do something different here on earth to start taking care of the planet instead of just extracting and kind of killing it. So Sun and Earth is a great one. There's an organization that we also have a great partnership and fellowship with called the resource Innovation Institute. They're developing any kind of lead for weed certification, okay. There are some other groups out there. Looking at sustainability kind of labeling. At this time, I am loath to recommend any one of those just because none of them have really been fully developed. The there's some, I think, big questions around how some of the concepts or applications can be used with cannabis. And again, from a market perspective, there's there's really nothing out there that has traction today. So we're in our analysis, we think that there's just this huge need for the kind of foundational concepts. So right. So again, that's why we're releasing organically grown cannabis certification, because we feel like people need to start somewhere. You know, if you look at the data, again, consumers are driven by cost and convenience, right. So they are looking for the strongest product at the best price. There's there's all this great research that shows that consumers are doing that. There's a woman that Lewis and Clark University professor, Dr. Elizabeth Bennett, who a few years ago wrote, or has been conducting research into the space, and a few years ago, as a baseline, went out and did consumer surveys and retail surveys in Portland, Oregon. Right. And what she found in Portland was that 55% of bud tenders thought that all marijuana was natural or organic, because it's plant. Right. And so to me, that's really startling, because we're talking about Portland, Oregon, right? Like, Portland is not just like some place where they don't think about what they eat or what they consume.

Ronjini Joshua: 33:23

Yeah, it's the place. Yeah, leading edge

Ben Gelt: 33:26

of this stuff, right? Like they the Northwest United States is actually the number one area in the world for organic, local penetrated, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of consumption. And Portland is like out in front. And so when you think about the fact that more than half of the people in the industry have this perception around the plant, what do we think is happening in Portland, Maine, or Miami? Or Miami, Florida, or Denver, Colorado, right? The numbers are going to be higher? Right? Again, I think absent a multimillion dollar education campaign, there needs to be an offering where it's just there for consumers to see. Oh, look at that label. I recognize that concept. I'm accustomed to paying more for that type of concept. Let me support that.

Ronjini Joshua: 34:12

How is it gonna apply to I mean, we've been talking about the plan itself and probably the flower mostly but how is it applied to other consumer goods like you know, skincare beauty edibles, like how will it relate to that? How will that translate?

Ben Gelt: 34:29

So in the initial term, the way that it will work is if you know if Sheldon makes a topical with Ronjini flour. We could say that Sheldon is topical is is produced with organically grown cannabis got it. So wouldn't certify the entire product. We would say you're able to carry the certification to show that the cannabis in that product did meet this standard. Got it. Okay.

Ronjini Joshua: 34:55

So but but it will apply to maybe. Well, I mean, that's kind of rough to like I think I think that's the other thing is like, when you look at the beauty industry, it's like a whole different set. So I'm sure you guys are gonna have something else for that particular. Yeah. So we do have

Ben Gelt: 35:10

that stuff in the pipeline, we will make specific labels for what I call derivative goods, which is in flour, right? Yeah. So yeah, we will do that. But again, in the near term, we're able to apply a very simple seal on derivative goods, it says the cannabis in this product is organically gone. So we're not going to certify the entire derivative. Good. We'll just say, this piece of the sourcing is sort of.

Ronjini Joshua: 35:36

So yeah, I guess I mean, going back to the question of adoption, like how, where did how do you see this playing out? And like, I've gotten different answers from many different people of you know, when cannabis will be federally legal, and when, you know, it'll be a little bit more open, and everything's going to kind of open up and there'll be more options for everyone. But what do you what do you foresee for the retail market as far as timing goes, and like true adoption of when consumers can, you know, feel confident when they go somewhere that, you know, things aren't what they say they are, and they have the education, and they have the options? Like what do you think is coming up? And what are some of the challenges that are coming up?

Ben Gelt: 36:18

I think it's gonna be a while, I think that we'll need to have federal prohibition and we'll have to see things like Good Manufacturing Practices actually take hold. Because again, at the end of the day, even the biggest states like California, don't have the resources to do the type of quality assurance, quality control, management and work that goes on. And then it's just like that, they're just not there for that. So I think it will take the end of federal prohibition to really start to move in that direction. I think some markets are doing better than others. But my observation is really that every market has gaps. Right? And it certainly how motivated is an operator to exploit that gap? And, you know, I, I don't believe that operators are out there looking to break rules or to create bad product. But I do believe that people are looking to control costs and looking to be as efficient as possible. And because the consumer awareness isn't there, there isn't that demand, people are not walking into stores and saying, where's the organic? Because they think it is organic? Yeah. Right. It's just, it's gonna take a while it's gonna take some force.

Ronjini Joshua: 37:45

I mean, we thought that was food, right? Like we don't nobody knows. Nobody knows except the grower. So it's, it's, um, yeah, there is a big gap, there's gonna be some kind of documentary on like, you know, bad weed or something. That's a good name for a documentary. Eventually.

Ben Gelt: 38:02

I mean, it's amazing. Like, I have a great graphic from like a 1980, or 1978. Village Voice article where it's like toxic pot. Yeah. article about like, Hey, we don't really know where all this stuff is coming from. The truth is like, even today, and in a more regulated environment, different states have different rules. A lot of states, you know, are only having a fairly short list of pesticides that aren't that are approved. So here's an example. Right? So with pesticides, many states have even like 100 pesticides that will be banned. You can't use these pesticides, those same states only test for like 10 or 15 pesticides. So if you're banning 100, but you only test for 10. How do you Yeah, you literally are doing nothing, yeah, to match it. So it's just like, even in the markets, where you have better looking rules, the execution is just way off. And and that also reflects the tension with the federal prohibition, because pesticides are federally regulated products. They're regulated by the EPA. And you know, it's there's this whole like, system that's out there for special application of pesticides and getting special licenses. I think being 24 application doesn't matter. Like, there's a process that you can do to get a pesticide approved for a different product, but it's a lot of work. It just so until these things kind of go away and the federal prohibition is gone. And these these weird gaps and tensions just dissolve, they're gonna persist and without something that is really a fundamentally market based solution. I don't think we're going to see much change. So again, I know that I'm repetitive That's a huge part of why we're like, okay, we really need to do something simple that consumers will understand that a business owner will understand the retail buyer, the retail, you know, the wholesale seller, the budtender. Like, what is the thing that we can get everybody through the gate? without a lot of questions. And it's like, organic, organic isn't, you know, organically grown cannabis, if we go ask 100 people on the street what that

Ronjini Joshua: 40:25

means they know what it means. Yeah.

Ben Gelt: 40:27

And it's like, if we ask a second question of, can you define it, then we're going to get 100 different answers. One, if they all can say, Yeah, I know what that is. Yeah, like, right. That's the critical half the

Ronjini Joshua: 40:39

battle. Yeah, I mean, this conversation makes me want to go live on a farm and grow my own food, and raise chickens. Like, I just, it's just like, it's so interesting. I think it's so crazy, that'll there's so many people who don't know what they don't know. And because we just have so much trust in, in the grocery store, or like, you know, that the government that they are going to do the right thing, but I think it really is important for people, for consumers to demand that they like really have these kinds of whether it's certification or like some kind of transparency. I think that's kind of right, the effort here is to make things transparent, so that we're not actually intoxicating our bodies. Right?

Ben Gelt: 41:25

Yeah, well, yeah. And, you know, I mean, most consumers are still going to make choices based on cost. And that's, that's, that just is the reality of those social structures systems that we're in. But when you don't have any insight into why something costs a certain way, it's just that is a level of opacity that, that takes away from any kind of consumer protection. Right. So to me, the other piece of the organic label is that it should begin to create a more meaningful spectrum of quality and price in the marketplace, which should actually lead to a more predictable and stable environment, which I think is something that business operators generally want. They want predictability so that they can plan. Yeah, so it Yeah, I mean, again, I think we're optimistic that this label will help hasten that timeline and kind of bridge that gap. I think, you know, federal prohibition is going to persist for at least while longer, couple more years. So it's, like I said before, we need some market based apparatus to help drive that change, because states are not going to suddenly become experts in these things. They're not going to suddenly start spending lots of money to educate around it like, like, again, what California is doing with Oh, cow program? Great, great. Let's have some standards and sales, but like, what are you going to do to actually help people understand this? So yeah, we just think this is this is the this is the way, you know, somebody has got to do it. On our podcast. Yay, we're educating people. So one of my questions is, a lot of us are very familiar with some of the standard things like not using pesticides, that's a quality marker, the quality of soil, the things like that, what are some of the more obscure quality markers that people wouldn't know about? It's a great question, you know, me, as I've learned about all the different methods of production and everything else, you know, I think that that one of the most like, it's interesting, because I, I've been in the industry for so long. I know a lot of different stuff. But I'm not a grower. Like, I'm not a farmer, I have no urge to go farm. I'm a city but so you know, the thing that I've learned is that the post harvest is, is so important, like how they harvest itself, that's a critical thing. And then, are they really drying and curing? Are they doing that for a meaningful amount of time? Are they really allowing the plant to get to it's kind of full benefit. A lot of a lot of growers all over the country really don't allow for any time they are harvesting, and they're packaging and they're selling. And it's just, so I think dealers kind

Ronjini Joshua: 44:26

of like wine, like, you know, like, barrel aging wine or or B or homebrews. Or like, you can kind of compare it to like craft brewing and things like I mean, if it's like that same, you know, feel and I'm sure people will taste the difference, right?

Ben Gelt: 44:42

You absolutely can. And again, you know, like a lot of people love light beer, which is like beer flavored water. Yeah. So great. But you know, a lot of people and obviously with beer, it's an interesting way to look at it. The craft market is exploded. I also think wine is a fascinating Sort of comparison for marijuana because, you know, I think we all drink wine. How much do we all really know about it right? Enough to kind of know a little bit about what I like, but I don't I don't know stuff. It's just like, I'm looking at price. And I'm like, Alright, if it's, you know, kind of at this price point, it must be decent, right? Like, got to like little boutique wine shops. And I'm like, Oh, we have these great small labels. And it's comparable to these very famous wines, but it's half the price or less, you know. So when you look at how nebulous, that is fascinating,

Ronjini Joshua: 45:38

I should do more research. I feel like I feel like like the Dow, I haven't done enough research in my wine consumption. I need to research the farms a little bit. Yeah, the vineyards. I do anecdotal research. Oh, okay. Well, okay, how about for vertically integrated businesses? Like it does that? Is it easier for them? To we're talking about price? So is it easier for them to control the price and give a more fair price? If it's like a vertically integrated business that has all aspects of, you know, you know, growing and selling and their brand? What do you what do you think about that concept? Because I've heard a lot of people talk about how it's better to, you know, have a business of that, of that stature. You know, it's like, What problems do you want? Yeah, right.

Ben Gelt: 46:34

I always tell people in my partners, or my clients, or whatever, it's like, there's always problems. And it's just like how, how good of a problem is it. And you know, if you have a successful business, you've got a ton of problems, they're just good problems, right? Because you've got to solve it to keep the thing going, and it is up. So I am not going to tell you Oh, one way or another is better than this, or that it really just comes down to what what your plan is, what your goals are. There are certainly many efficiencies that can be achieved with a vertically integrated business. But there are also opportunities and advantages to being more siloed. And being an expert in your field. So if you're a brilliant engineer, and you really know about extraction, do that, why would you spend a lot of time and money trying to do something that you really are not good at? Right? So it just, you know, what I would say, I guess, generically, is for a vertically integrated operation of any scale, you need the resources to make that work. So the bigger you are, the more challenging that becomes you got to have more people or money. But of course, the opportunity in that is also significant. So there's no right answer is the truth.

Ronjini Joshua: 47:50

So you mentioned goals, and you got to have a goal and a plan, what is what is like the overarching goal of the CCC, I'm going to call it now.

Ben Gelt: 48:00

The big goal for the council is to become through certification to become kind of this clearing house of quality and standards. The other goals are to become Well, that's it, I shouldn't. That's the goal is to really become this clearinghouse of information and quality and certifications. So we've talked a lot today, today about organically grown cannabis certification. We also do a lot of work in the sustainability category. So we've been doing an event for this is year six of the cannabis sustainability symposium. Those become national events. We're actually hosting one later today. Oh, yep. Cannabis sustainability.org. If people want to check it out, we'll be doing another one in August. And then our flagship event is in October, a week of incredible programming of just all these great experts from all around the world who are in the sustainability community, many people from the cannabis community, and it's just all about trying to bring best practices into the industry. So the goal for us is to do that. It's the goal is really our mission statement is to educate consumers and industry about sustainable and quality practices. And, you know, we think that through that education, things like the organically grown cannabis certification will become more and more relevant in the marketplace. So yeah, we just don't see the industry be as good as it can be.

Ronjini Joshua: 49:25

Do you guys also support like companies that are just trying to figure it out to like, you know, maybe they're not quite there for a certification, but they're trying to figure out like, what they need and what they want to do. As far as you know, what part of the what part of the puzzle do I want to be in and, you know, how can I present myself in the best way? Is that something that you guys do at the Council?

Ben Gelt: 49:47

In a way I mean, with the certification part of that is one of the processes we do have a lot of supporting material and resources where we can help people kind of understand where they're at where they were, what they need

Ronjini Joshua: 49:59

where they want to be. Yeah.

Ben Gelt: 50:01

And then I'd say through this sustainability work. You know, I think that our ethos, there is a very open one, we want all people coming in and participating and sharing and learning. So, you know, the short answer is yes, we do that. And a lot of that is just via education, and by, you know, making these events available, by bringing together all of these amazing experts and leaders from all over. I mean, we really have developed a global network of these people. So short answer, yes. I mean, some of that is through services. A lot of that is just through education and networking and resources.

Ronjini Joshua: 50:42

What What is the next event? Like? What is the next big industry event that you're looking forward to? Well, selfishly, it's the cannabis sustainability. So yeah, as well, of course, of course. I mean, that's a virtual event, I'm guessing virtual event. Yeah. What about live event? Like, I feel like we're I'm starting to see all these live events kind of come online, and we're all getting ready to kind of be in person again. So like, from that perspective, what do

Ben Gelt: 51:09

I miss, like all the great socializing and business and stuff that you can do going around to these conferences and trade shows? I've been in a few other industries, and cannabis is a really good one to be it is the one that you're aware of that we should know about?

Ronjini Joshua: 51:24

Other than the there's a Mobius ones, but

Ben Gelt: 51:26

other than the obvious ones? And then you know, probably, but I'm going to go with an obvious one. I'm going to say I'm Jay Bez, yeah, yeah, I am looking forward to that. It's always it's always an extraordinarily productive time for, at least for me and for the council. And for me,

Ronjini Joshua: 51:44

I think everybody have heard everybody who's ever talked about it has, you know, is looking forward to it. So

Ben Gelt: 51:51

it's a thing. There. And you know, I think this year, it's in October,

Ronjini Joshua: 51:58

I thought it was in December. It's in October. Oh, it's in October. Okay. Okay.

Ben Gelt: 52:03

So and I just think, you know, MJ business is also a great partner and sponsor of the Council. So we've got closely with them, they're very supportive of our work. So I just plug in that, but genuinely, I'm really looking forward to that when there are some other events that I'm expecting to go to in person before that. But I suspect that that one is just going to be like this. Yeah, you know, it'll be in October. There's some stuff before then. That's the one that everybody targets every year anyway. So I really think that that one is just going to feel like okay, like, there are all those people I haven't seen for 12 1416 months. Yeah, we are hosting an event. mjbizcon. So we you definitely are invited, of course. And so I'm looking forward to meeting you in person there. Yes. Well, we'll be there. We'll also be doing some events so we can talk offline about that.

Ronjini Joshua: 52:56

Cool, perfect. Well, thank you so much. I think I mean, this is really informative, just about certifications in general, I think. I always wonder like, how valid are things. So this is a really great conversation. And if anybody wants to learn a little bit more, I mean, we'll have all the links in the show notes. But can you just tell us real quick where they can find you?

Ben Gelt: 53:16

cannabis cert.org cannabis sustainability.org. And I'll take you to the same place our website is, is it's we just refreshed it. So it's a good place to go and see what we're doing. It's got all of our upcoming events, you can register for everything that we're doing that will also be participating at the eMERGE event coming up next month and a bunch of different conferences, the cannabis conference in Las Vegas at the end of August. So we will start to be out there in the world at those places. And yeah, we'll be doing symposium events. We have one later today, may 21. And then we've got another two day event coming up August 18, and 19th. We'll be doing a shorter symposium event in June. So go to our website, check it out the events calendar is is pretty poppin and most of it for free, right there.

Sheldon: 54:03

Awesome.

Ronjini Joshua: 54:03

Well, thank you so much, Ben. Have a great weekend. And thanks for joining us on the green room.

Ben Gelt: 54:08

Thank you both so much. Thank you also for accommodating my schedule. I really appreciate it.

Ronjini Joshua: 54:12

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